BJ Foster is CEO of PRR, an award-winning public relations firm that works with government agencies, organizations, and businesses in the fields of transportation, public health, economic development, and environmental policies — helping them better inform the people in the community.

They’re a great asset to creating positive change. We chat about that work, including why PR can be so powerful if done correctly — and how it can do more harm than good when it’s not.

But BJ also shares some of the lessons she learned over her long career in startups to large companies. One of the most important is about what a business needs at its core to grow efficiently and effectively.  

We also talk about…

• How to be an effective  manager when you inherit a close-knit team
• Ways to leverage your employees’ strongest skill sets
• The unique ownership structure that has her juggling multiple roles – and how she keeps things straight
• Why employee  feedback is so important (and why you can’t just do annual reviews)
• And more

Listen now…

Mentioned in this episode:

• www.prrbiz.com 
• https://www.linkedin.com/company/prr

Transcript

Doug Hall: Hi everybody, Doug Hall here, host of Go For Growth with Doug Hall and we have a great podcast guest today. BJ Foster is the chief executive officer of PRR here in Seattle. And she’s been there for a couple of years now, two and a half years making her imprint on this company. And it’s our honor today to hear from her to learn some lessons of how she’s grown that firm what she’s done before. Some advice for you as you guys grow your firm. So help me in welcoming BJ foster today. BJ, thanks for being with us.

BJ Foster: Thanks for having me, guys.

Doug Hall: The whole theme of the podcast is growing and going for growth. So give us a little idea of some growth experiences in your career. What you’ve seen lately, maybe in NPR and some of the more you know, profound lessons that have made a difference to you.

Life Lessons

BJ Foster: Sure. I think the biggest thing that I’ve learned in my career is because I’ve done startups I’ve done mid-sized companies been in large companies. And it’s the fact that the companies that are able to grow and scale are the ones that have a repeatable and scalable process. So they’ve invested in their infrastructure, they’re able to just get the machine turning, if you will, very efficiently and effectively, so that that is what helps them grow. Because just doing the one-offs here and there, it’s inefficient and doesn’t really serve the organization.

Doug: So think about a position in your history. Where did that come home to you? What was the best example of that?

BJ: I did a little I didn’t turn around for the division, our subsidiary of Airbus. And a company, you know, had been around for quite some time and we were in a cybersecurity industry and I came in And I was hired by the board to come in and turn it around, they were losing money, couldn’t figure out why. And so, Hey, man, I looked at everything and they put business development under me at that time I was the CFO, and which isn’t usually the case, they always put business development underneath the chief operating officer. So they did that. And I implemented that you know, proper go no go and doing all the things you should do and that and the company 150 million dollar contract after we did that, and really, that’s what taught me that lesson is if you’re able to get that machine turning, then you can unseat a lot of folks out there if you know what you’re doing. So that was a big turning point for me.

Doug: So, think about coming into PRR a few years ago, I think you came in there also as CFO, right?

BJ: I did, right? That’s the thing. There is a theme, you know, when I first started out in accounting and finance and I got my MBA was I always wanted to be in charge and lead or whatever you call it, but I think that’s given me honestly, a leg up and a nuts because if you understand every aspect of an organization, not just the sales and marketing, not just the finances, not just the operations and I sat in all of those different seats, then you really have an understanding of where how to best position the company. So yes, I started at PR as the CFO and in short, order just said hey, you know, just put some, some things in front of them said these are the things that you could do to improve and grow, and by like eight months later, they offered me the position of CEO. So here we are position where positioning ourselves for growth, certainly.

Doug: Next one, so let’s take everybody down a path a little bit, tell us what PRR does. And then give us some insights on what you see is what you’ve been able to work on and change and leverage. So start first with what is PRR all about?

Who is PRR?

BJ: What if you are we are an integrated communications agency. And what that means is we offer really a full-service agency for doing different aspects of communicating. And we primarily communicate with the public on behalf of public agents. So we can do anything from we have a very, very strong research department, which is really where it all starts. And then from research, we can feed that information into our public involvement process or public engagement, public relations, if that’s the medium that we’re communicating, then we can take it from there and we can do a whole marketing campaign which will include social media, and then we also can build websites and do the design aspects of that particular types of communications. And again, it’s all primarily with public agencies. And as we focus on three primary sectors, which is transportation, healthcare and environment, and really the future of the organization, and where I see it going is, is the intersection of those three, because that’s where from a public engagement standpoint that folks really need to understand the intersection of those and how it impacts their lives. And that’s what we’re here to do is to help people understand what transpired from the public agencies and the decisions that they’re making in the public sector, how that can impact their lives.

Doug: Good. points, clients want to hear the word of the public, they want to hear back.

BJ: That is correct. That is correct. So some of our biggest clients, for instance, let’s just take an example. here locally, we have one of our clients is was shot so that’s in the transportation sector. So if they make a decision to the toll road or take down the viaduct and put up a tunnel or you know, and then we’ll be communicating with the public to help them understand how is that going to impact them? How do you become involved so that you’re so that constituents are represented and that people understand how it’s going to impact them in their community.

Doug: So how long does a typical client engagement go for you guys?

BJ: So we can do very short term engagements we can we’ve done things from in a shorter as a month to two months. We also will be on retainer for some organizations, so that they can call on us when they actually need you. And those tend to be sometimes more of a crisis situation that will help them through and others are a very long term we can have because we’re in the, you know, government sector, if you will, then the contracts are typically for an extended period of time. And because we’re a communications firm, we also will be subcontracted to some to some of the larger engineering firms as their communication arm when they have to work with the public.

Doug: And they’re involved in some public works project or cleanup project or something?

BJ: Correct. Yes. So for instance, we have the towing that goes on the I45 we were involved with the process. And when the tunnel was under construction, or we were part of the communications team, we’re doing a gateway project down south. So we so if there’s anything is going to come in, this is all particularly in the transportation sector. We also do things in the environmental sector, there’s you know, water, sewer, things like that will get involved in those as well.

Doug: So I was going to ask you about crisis management because I, you know, we see stories about that. So, what percentage of the time is that crisis-driven and what are some examples where you guys We’ve been able to help the agencies.

BJ: So those are fewer and far between. We prefer to prepare our clients in advance of those and help them understand how to avoid those situations by always putting upfront. Yeah, right. And yeah, that those are the ones we really haven’t been involved too much in those. I have not since I’ve been with the farm. So I really don’t want to speak to something that I haven’t been involved in. No, of course not.

Doug: If you think in terms of a typical kind of project, in terms of a story mentioned the portal five toolings did you get involved with the in the highway 99 pummeled tolling Is that something you’ve been helping with?

BJ: Not with this whole thing, but we were involved in the construction portion when Barca was tunneling through and all of the situations that we were they were invited that was game was before my time, but I’ve heard great stories about it. In fact, there was a riot I think was the first week I joined. Bertha came out of the tunnel. So there was this. We had it displayed on in, in the company and on the big screen. We’re celebrating the fact that that she came out of her head finished. But that was a challenging communication for her folks.

Doug: Yes. You guys had a lot of work to do there over those years. Yeah, very challenging. So tell me about your team. Because clearly you inherited a team and you’ve been putting your mark on your team. So I’m really curious about you, your views and experience on leadership and management. So tell us a little bit about how you’ve got structured and insights you’ve gained there as you’ve taken over the team.

BJ: I will tell you that it has been one of the biggest challenges and one of the biggest rewards the company has a very unique structure. We are considered a disadvantage Business Enterprise because we are majority-owned by women, which is a great thing in this in this environment is fantastic.

So we own, the women own a little more than 50% because that’s the requirement. The remainder is an employee stock ownership. So we also have employee-owners. So the combination of those two create for quite a unique environment because we are all about, you know, trying to engender employee ownership yet, you know, the five women have to leave the organization and, and that takes a lot of collaboration. And you insert someone into the process like me, who comes from a very background, working with larger organizations and really bringing that unique perspective outside the organization into something that’s been around for quite some time that can grow up from a what a single woman-owned company into five women owning it. And some of them have been there their entire careers at one organization. So it’s getting to know them quite well. It’s getting to know them on a personal basis as well as a professional basis. And I restructured the company in 2018. And just I looked at their skill sets and said, okay, where can I best deploy them? And what will they do really well at based on what I know and so… 

Doug: These are the five owners, right?

BJ: Correct. Correct. One was already she already was in that as a head of HR born with a natural as far as the business development goes, but you know, just because we’re professional services organization, a part of their time has to be spent, you know, doing business development three major they work on projects until, like, okay, What’s your skill set and where what projects should you be working on and which, which sector should be developing, and they’ve, they’ve done a great job and they all have this fantastic mindset of this is the company that is is our legacy. This is what we want to leave to Seattle and to the next generation of leaders in the organization and, and that’s the world went through strategic planning this past year, and we’re getting we’re writing our business plan and putting that all of that forward and starting to execute against it. So it’s quite exciting.

Doug: Tell me more about how it’s been for them to hire you to be their boss. And they’re the owners. 

BJ: Right here… and here’s what’s funny, so not only are they my boss, and I report to them as board and owners, they report to me in their functional role. What I yeah, so what I did from the outset was I went out and I bought Some hat from me, I have had a WeChat. I have a captain tab. I’ve got some green, green-shaded visor, and then I’ve got this other hat that has bling on it and has a $1 sign with some bling. And so what I do when I talked to people out there, okay, what hat do I have on? And so when they see me doing that, then that then that’s how I help them understand. are you engaging with me on your in your functional day to day role? Or are you engaging with me as a board member? So it’s really an educational process. And we work on it every day. And also educating the remainder of the staff that, you know, this is the role that we’re in and we played multiple roles. And so it’s really, how are we engaging with others and what role are we playing at the time?

Doug: So they have different hats also?

BJ: Yes, they do. They have an owner hat. They have an employee hat and they have a functional hat. So I work with him. And we work together, you know, every day to make sure we all understand what hat we’re wearing, at what time.

Doug: So share with us an insight there in terms of beyond the hats metaphor, which is fabulous. Then, as you exerted leadership there, what’s worked and what hasn’t worked with this with the owners and then go down below them. So, Steve, think broadly in terms of what’s worked, because I’m looking for insights that other people can learn from you’re in a rich learning environment there I have to say, right.

BJ: Right. I think you have to have willing participants. So the women stepped back and said, This is not our wheelhouse. This is not my skill set. You know, I have a marketing background or I have a business development. I don’t know what it is to run the company. And I think if people can look Thought and, and let go of their egos that it becomes a much smoother path. One of the I wrote to me, I wrote my thesis on entrepreneurial teams and the one thing that I came out of that was with complementary skill sets. If you put your team together with complementary skill sets, then that’s when you’re going to do your best because not everyone knows everything. So I look to them to do their jobs, and to bring me the information I need that I may not know and may not have. And I think that’s what’s the biggest takeaway in this environment. So that’s what’s worked really well. What is the challenge is when I have to say, No, that’s your functional role, you know, if a decision is my make a decision, and they say, Well, I didn’t, how come I didn’t know about that? I have to say, well, you’ll learn about that at the board meeting. That you don’t really need to know that as part of your day to day role. So it’s just gently, gently nudging and saying, not your wheelhouse today. And so that’s the biggest challenge.

Doug: Yeah, and that’s what, that’s all a very human interaction because there’s a desire to know everything.

BJ: There is. I even have to follow sometimes I’ll hear about stuff because that’s the other thing too is owners. They’re used to that, making those types of decisions. And, and so I’ll find out about something. And I’ll say, did you run that by me or and then it’s like, oh, I’m sorry, I forgot or, you know, and it’s all we learned to really work well together in that regard. And it’s also giving people grace. We use that word a lot at our company is understanding that there needs to be grace because it’s always a learning environment, and we’re learning together. And now we’re learning out loud, which is quite interesting.

Doug: So pivot from leadership and leadership lessons. And those are two good ones on what’s working and what’s challenging it down to the management level, what have you found to work and not work in literally managing these functional leaders and then helping them manage their teams.

BJ: The biggest piece is ensuring that you’re providing regular feedback. We just had an all staff and one of the things we invested in is bringing an outside consultant to do a class on giving and receiving feedback because everyone does it differently. Some are more effective than others. But it’s very important on a real-time basis to give feedback because if you wait until the end of the year, during a performance review, and people don’t understand, you know, I thought I was doing a great job and now you’re telling me I’m not or whatever. That’s, that’s really the key with your direct reports. The other thing I’ve learned to do is allow them to make their own decisions. For instance, not having to come to me to say can I make this higher or what do you think about this? I say, you know, that’s your decision. I’m happy to provide if I can do this or if you want inside or anything, but that’s not my decision that’s yours because that’s your wheelhouse.

Doug: Do you control that through the budget?

BJ: I hate to use the word control.

Doug: There’s got to be some constraints somewhere. They can’t just hire anybody they want me. Right. So what?

BJ: That is correct. So what we do is yes, you’re right. So I introduced the formal budget. When I was here, the first year I was here, they did not have a budget before that and had never gone to a formal budgeting process. So it took them through that. The first year went to another one last year again, going through it again this year. And it’s setting up the budget and I and I, you know, I will say here’s a revenue goal, here’s that and here’s what you can spend based on what we bring in. But that is a way to control it, if you will, is you know, saying you tell me how you’re going to spend the money but if you’re not making If you’re not hitting your goals, then what? How do we have to adjust? And what can we do? So I make them part of that decision-making process.

Doug: This makes me think you’re, you’re building or rebuilding, or let’s say, enhancing the culture there. So tell me a little bit about what you’ve found in culture, what was working and not working and where you’re going with driving culture in PRR.

I can sum that up very easily because we have this conversation a lot. We are moving from a culture of accommodation to a culture of accountability. We have coined that phrase, if you will, because, you know, there are certain things that you might that you really have to do as an organization, and it’s holding everyone accountable is modeling the behavior. It is you know, I don’t tell everyone is to the lowest level person and accounts payable or you know, the front desk if you see me doing something and I’m not walking the talk and then you tell me because I need to correct that. So we’re really striving to engender that in each and every employee.

Doug: So what’s working and what’s not working in that effort?

BJ: Well, because somebody will say, Well, you know, a lot of times it becomes excuses. And it’s very difficult when you’ve worked with people for a long time to hold them accountable and not come up with excuses and to make a very difficult decision. Right. So we’re a professional services organization, and as such, we sell every hour, every hour is billable. That’s how we make money. So I instituted we look at our billable utilization percentage just to see what people are doing. And so we have targets if you’re not making your target, we have to have that conversation. And when I have started one of the things that were said one time I asked, I said, Well, why aren’t you talking to this person about why they’re not meeting their targets? And they said, Well, we don’t want to, and it wasn’t any of the women, none of the owners. It was someone in the organization, so we don’t want to hurt their feelings. As can imagine my reaction, I’m like, oh, wow, okay, well, how can we do it in a way that doesn’t hurt their feelings, but yet explained how important it is because that’s how the organization makes money. And that’s how an individual contributes to the overall health of the organization as well. So we’re a lot of educational processes. I’ve introduced these things called town halls, to get more transparency for people around financials, so I can report out on financials and they have an opportunity to ask questions of what you know, what are we doing what’s going on where’s the direction of the organization. So we do those on a quarterly basis. We do something every other week, which they call huddle. Those have been going on forever. Those are not something I introduced. But yeah, so that we’re just making sure that the information is getting out there to everyone. And what’s everyone doing? And who’s working on what and showcasing our projects and the like.

Doug: So how many people are involved? What’s PRR’s headcount now?

BJ: We have 85 employees, some of those employees. So one of the things we pride ourselves on is that we’re flexible. So we may have some people that work part-time we have some people at work, which will call four-fifths, mostly full time we have people also that are bench employees. And so bench employees are just allowed us to reach that. So we have someone who has to pull off a project and we’re able to pull them in and do the work for it.

Doug: Will they be contractors that you pull into the project?

BJ: They wouldn’t be the interesting thing on Allah if you work for public agencies is they want everyone to be an employee. And they don’t necessarily want them to be contractors. So these are their employees, they’re on our payroll. It’s just they may not work. They’re just hourly. So we’re able to call upon them on an hourly basis, but they are considered employees.

Doug: Perfect, great. So you’ve got a flexible workforce that you can scale up and down.

BJ: Yes, we do.

Doug: Cool, but at 85 employees. You’re right. You’ve got enough folks there’s plenty of room for confusion or lack of so these hurdles and town halls are some very important.

BJ: They are and we also have, we have a strong presence in the Mid Atlantic region. So we have an East Coast staff as well. And then we’ll have people that are based in project offices. So people in DC or I’ll call it the, you know, Washington Metro area because there’s Virginia, DC In that area, and then there’s we have a strong presence in Baltimore, and in the Norfolk, Virginia area. And then here in Seattle as well and work we just hire this is a pretty, pretty big thing to announce. We just hired Jamie Smith, who is was Governor Inslee, communications director. And she joined the firm last week. Yeah, so that was a, she used to work for PR many, many years ago and now has come back. And we’re excited to have her because we’re looking to build our what we’ll call ourselves sound area, and she’s going to help us with policy and things really understanding the legislation that’s coming out of our state, and how that’s going to impact our company and how an incredible now you’re, you’re plugged right into Olympia now. Right? Which is where we need to be, you know, coming from a federal contracting environment. One of the first things I asked I said, I know it’s a dirty word, but do you have any lobbyists, you know, people that are sitting there, understanding What’s going on? And, you know, this is going to help us understand not that we’re lobbying because we don’t do that. But it’s really just, you know, what is the policy? And how does it impact us and the public?

Doug: So when a high profile person from the public comes back to the private sector, like that, in this case, we’re where do your plugin? What function of the PR does that kind of person fit into naturally?

BJ: Yeah, so what we’re going to do is augment our practices there, as we call it, our research practices, there a strong work there. So this will become policy and public relations, not having relations, but public policy practice, right. So that’s people who understand legislation and ins and roads of government and government relations, basically.

Doug: Right. So you’re really extending your research capability by this kind of excellence. Joining yourself correctly. Interesting

BJ: And understanding things are going on in the south town because you know that we’ve got things that are going on in Seattle proper, you know, we’ve got all of the, you know, Federal Way link extensions going here. And we’re working on that. You’ve got the i 90, so each link this going into Bellevue, and there’s the gateway, which is south of here. So it’s really this interconnection between Tacoma Seattle, and so that this person will help what we call shelf down which is south to Seattle.

Doug: Right, so basically Pierce County, South King, you know, all the way you know, down.

Yeah, I drive up and down. I thought I go there on the way to Portland. Right. So yeah, we can become a little bit insular here can are clustered right around Lake Union and Puget Sound. So we need to, we need to go north and south also. I get that.

So think about the growth you guys are in a strategic planning model without divulging anything, no proprietary, but in general themes. What do you see for professional services? What are your growth levers? What drivers are you guys looking at for the next one to three years? What matters when you think about it?

BJ: So if you look at what’s going on from an infrastructure standpoint, which is where we really have strong communication skills and understanding how to engage with the public, there are there’s something going on called Petris. I don’t know if you’ve heard anything mentioned in the region about that, but their public-private partnerships. And so those are particular types of column contracting vehicles and a way to deliver projects that we have a lot of action and we are able to help an agency of public agency navigate those waters. And so that’s where I saw the growth of the organization are on these types of projects. And again, like I was talking before about the intersection of health environments, and transportation and sort of what if I, if I close my eyes, I look at an example it would be underserved population living in a rural area who needs to get into the city to see a doctor which has a health component, transportation component, and then the environment component is what type of transportation is going to take is going to drive and you know how to increase carbon footprint and be able to take transportation or not at all. So those are so that’s sort of what we’re going to be seeing more of in the future is that type of work and we want to end our skills in communication and helping people Thought that problem.

The 3 P’s

Doug: So when these three P’s, pop up, public-private partnerships, how do you address them? I mean, how do you engage there?

BJ: So typically, you engage in very, very early stages in the process too because they’re very long term and their long term planning before they’re even left out to the public. Hopefully, hopefully, we’ll get into involved in the design-build phase of it when they’re trying to make those types of decisions.

Doug: Would they literally hire you guys? Would they hire PRR to help them formulate and create messaging? 

BJ: Yes they do. We’re on a big one. Yeah, early engagement is critical. We are in Baltimore, Maryland right now working with an agency out there in just that. So yeah, it’s early engagement which is critical.

Doug: So the will help you will help them, frame their messages, make sure they’re clear on that. And then help them advance as a partnership. At some point, they’re going to get funding, they’re going to do infrastructure projects.

BJ: If they’re successful, because a lot of times they can be controversial projects, depending on how they intend to fund it, or the public funding is going to come from it can come from the private agency and then told back or it can be some type of bond initiatives. There are different ways that they do it. So there can be the public sentiment is important. So the early you engage to communicate with them, the better.

Doug: So in our region is ST3 P3?

BJ:  couldn’t speak to that.

Doug: I think Sound Transit set that up. So there’s private funding together. At least there’s death. It’s out there in the market. Right. Right. It’s publicly guaranteed. But that may be a case. I mean, yeah, yeah, certainly in increasing like you said, Link going north, south, and East is a big deal for this region. That’s probably our single biggest project here. Right. And it Yeah, it is, but

BJ: I honestly can’t speak to how it’s funded. But that’s why we brought someone on to help understand and help me understand because, you know, I’m, even though I’ve lived in this region for eight years now, I am still not as familiar with it as I should be. 

Doug: You’ve had a lot of airplane miles during those years, right.

BJ: I have most definitely.

Doug: So when you think about leverage in growth, and you think about helping your staff grow the business, what’s one of the wonderful The highest leverage activities that you’ve been able to see that you could maybe recommend to other business leaders.

BJ: Sure. So because we’re a project-based organization, it’s your client’s relationships. One of the things we’re really good at it, once we get into an organization, we are able to amend consistently amend our contracts because of the relationships our project managers have with the client.

So it’s keeping their, their ears to the ground, knowing what’s coming. How do you help your clients because you’re really trying to solve their problems, and you have to look at it as your own problem? And there you know, there is also the thing is consulting is you have to be available a lot, your customer may call you or a client may call you at three in the morning, experiencing a crisis and you have to be available. So that’s, that’s something to look at as well.

Doug: So you guys are pretty specialized in government or You know, sort of public-private, there’s always a government element to it. So if somebody’s out there and a business that they are thinking of heading towards the government, either state, local, federal, what’s your advice to them on how to approach government business as different from commercial?

BJ: I wouldn’t recommend that they find a mentoring organization. So, there’s a good mentorship program, particularly for small business, you can find it to the FBA. Also, we do mentor, and we are looking for minority businesses to help mentor because we’re considered a minority. And so, you know, yeah, I’m always looking for companies. I was just sitting at a function last week, where Senator Murray was speaking and the lady sitting next to me with your Sound Transit who headed up you know, she has up there. There, Mr. Writing Program and we’re part of that. And she commended us on how well we do in that regard. So, again, just mentoring someone who’s who will take the time and help you understand and how to navigate those waters. Because there they are. They’re deep, and they’re rough.

Doug: Yeah, that’s my impression is if you’re good at a commercial private business, you’re not necessarily automatically going to be good at government business.

BJ: That is correct. That is correct. Yes. Your rate structure different. There’s a, there’s a formal proposal process, she goes through, you know, a bid process if you will. So there’s a Yeah, it’s a lot more complicated. But on the flip side, we’ve done private business in the past, and that’s also one of our initiatives coming forward. So we want to begin building our private business again,

Doug: Right, because you have transferable skills there. I mean, everything you do is needed by everybody.

BJ: That is correct, yes.

Business Growth Advice from BJ

Doug: It’s a growth opportunity. There you go. I love it. Think back over what we talked about today, and Maybe other things that are on your mind if you’re talking to a fellow business builder and they’re, you know, sort of looking at the next growth initiative or plateau what’s the number one piece of advice that comes to your mind for growing and effective business?

BJ: Planning and executing. I think a lot of I think I’d lean more towards the execution side of it. That’s the hardest part for most people. Because you can plan and you can talk about things and you can lay, you know, but if you don’t really execute against it, you’re really going to go nowhere. So that’s the most the biggest piece for me.

Doug: Yeah. On the other hand, if you execute without a plan, what happens?

BJ: Well, you don’t know where you’re going to end up, right?

Doug: Pretty much anything can happen. I think I think I’m glad you chose both words, planning and executing what you plan that that’s sound advice. Thank you. So how can people learn more about PR and maybe connect with you or can with the company?

BJ: Connect with the company. It’s our website is www.prrbiz.com. I’m on LinkedIn, we, you know, we are going to our website, check us out, got some positions open, and we’re always looking to hire really good communications folks. And yeah, those are the best ways.

Doug: And tell us again just so folks get a sense of where are your physical offices? I mean, you mentioned a second location just hit that real quick.

BJ: Sure. So our primary offices in downtown Seattle. We are located on Fourth Street right across from Westlake and we are also located in Baltimore, Maryland, we have a presence in DC. And those are our primary offices.

Doug: And then I would imagine the right level professional could work virtually, you might have in different parts of the country

BJ: We do that all the time. Yeah, we just had a woman that’s rolling off a huge project in Mobile, Alabama, and is here to help us.

Doug: Well, great. Well, BJ thanks for investing time with my audience today. great insight. great tips. And folks connect with BJ or PRR. It will help you and BJ, thanks again. I appreciate your time and your wisdom.

BJ: Thank you so much. I appreciate you letting me on your show.