June Jewell has seen lots of ups and downs in her many years as a CPA, with companies she’s worked for, her own ventures, and the businesses of clients she works with at AEC Business Solutions.

In many ways, that’s prepared her for the current pandemic crisis engulfing the world. One way she’s ahead of the game: she’s been working remotely from home since 1990 and has set it up so her team can do the same. Along the way, she’s discovered best practices for running a “virtual” office.

One of the main ways she helps clients is by helping them find top employees, which can be quite difficult in specialized fields with a lot of demand. She focuses on architecture and engineering firms, but these are lessons that can be applied to just about any industry.

We’ll talk about the many types of employees – and which ones work best for your business, as well as

• A systematic process for finding “lost dollars” in your business
• Old school management philosophies to avoid
• Why having high revenue can kill your business
• The most common way to lose money with a client – and how to avoid it
• And more

Listen now…

Mentioned in this episode:

• AEC Business

Transcript

Doug Hall: Hi, everybody. This is Doug Hall, host of Go for Growth, the podcast to help you think about the growth of your business. And today I have a special guest, June Jewell who’s the president of AEC business, literally an industry expert in architectural and engineering business segment. And I’m really glad to have June with us today to share her insights on growth in all of its forms.

And I might add that we are in the thick of the Covid-19 crisis as we record this, and by the time you hear it, we may be out a little bit on the other side of that, but there’s some timeless messages that I think we can discuss today to help you think about growth in challenging times as well as growth in good times. So June, welcome to Go for Growth.

June Jewell: Thank you so much, Doug. Thanks for having me.

Doug: Great. So the theme is growth and we’re in a recession because of this Covid virus. So share a little bit with us a little bit about your journey, how you got here, what’s important in your business and for your clients. And the theme I guess while we can’t avoid a crisis, managing through crisis and leading through crisis is part of what we’re all learning right now. So there’s a little backdrop for you to start with.

Leading Through a Crisis

June: Sure. Yeah, I’ve been through a lot of crisis so not sure that always makes you totally prepared for the crazy things that are happening right now. I went into business 30 years ago and actually got started because I got fired from a job when a recession was just hitting. Worked for a CPA firm, got fired and decided to go out on my own and became a software reseller.

Since then, I’ve been through four recessions, or this is the fourth I guess, and a failed partnership in 2010. That ended two years later. And then I was fortunate enough to be able to sell my business that I had started in 1990 after 24 years and sold it and started this new business now that I own AEC business. So it’s been an interesting journey to this point.

Doug: So you’ve, no doubt over these years, you’ve had employees at varying levels and quantities. So talk to us about adding employees and now in this time of crisis, how we sometimes has to shed employees. What do you, what lessons have you learned there?

June: Yeah, I’ve learned a lot of lessons from both from my businesses that I’ve owned, as well as with the almost thousand architecture engineering firms that I’ve worked with over the last 30 years. I’ve seen what they’ve gone through. The 2008 crisis. is really, really hit the architecture engineering and construction industry especially hard. When it first started, I had clients that had 100 employees that went out of business overnight. Mostly because of cash. They had, their receivables were too high.

And they were forced to just close the doors and they ended up selling their businesses on pennies on the dollar. And so just watching all of that happen, you know, there’s a lot of lessons to be learned. And then what’s interesting to see 10 years later, they were all fighting for employees. And they, the biggest challenge they’ve had for the last three years is finding talent and finding experienced architecture and engineering and environmental consultants.

And they’ve been poaching them from each other. And that’s been their major focus. So it’s really interesting to see the dynamics of how Industry affects, you know, the demand for these really highly skilled people. What I’ve seen is I’ve had a mixture of 1099 consultants, I’ve had employees. There’s pros and cons to having different models. And it was really interesting in 1990 when I went out on my own, I started working at home. And back then all we had was a fax machine and a telephone. And the US mail and a lot of stamps. And I’ve been virtual this entire time.

And even in 2010, when I did my merger with another company, we at that point, we had 35 employees in 13 states all working at home. And we had to come up with really interesting policies and processes for making sure they were productive, that we knew what they were doing, that they were following our, you know, our rules. And, you know, so it took a lot, it does take extra thought process to be able to create an environment where that kind of virtual remote working environment can work for a company. And I’ve had to fire people because they were gardening instead of working.

Doug: Sure, sure. Human nature, right? While we’re on that topic, interesting that I hadn’t thought we’d touched on remote work and virtual. We’re all in that world now. I mean, almost every part of North America is in some kind of a stay at home, work from home. So what did you find over those decades of managing this? What did you find to be the best policies and tips that you used every day? Think about the ones that became unconscious because you did it for so long.

Technology and the Workplace

June: Yeah, well, part of it’s technology. You know, we all had instant messaging, and it shows whether you’re online or not so we could see who was online or who wasn’t. We could see each other’s calendars so we knew whether you had appointments. Since 2017, I’ve exclusively use video conferencing for all of my meetings.

I, most of my clients hire us remotely now. we rarely go on site. And so we get really employed video conferencing, which is just so much more effective than the telephone for developing relationships with clients and employees, and employees. So we had a whole manual we created about how to set up your home office, what our expectations were about your internet connection and things like that. And, you know, when problems rose up, technology-wise, we dealt with it. But technology does solve a lot of problems.

Doug: Right. And that’s interesting that you actually created sort of a procedure manual around working virtually.

June: Yeah, you have to. If you, not everybody can work at home. I think there’s going to be a lot of people finding that out pretty soon. I was on with a woman yesterday who had two little kids running around and her company made her work at home. And I don’t think it was working that well for her, but

Doug: Probably not. So that’s a great topic. What’s the common failure mode that you saw in virtual? So if owners and managers are listening to this now, what should they look out for? What’s the number one gotcha?

June: Well, first of all, you have to trust people. Because, you know, it’s all based on trust. And it’s really interesting. I was in a CEO roundtable in the fall and the topic of letting employees telework came up. And some of the CEOs said things like, well, we don’t know what they’re doing because we can’t see them. And my response to them was, you don’t know what they’re doing in your office. If you cannot trust the person at home, then you can’t even trust them and you’re office.

Doesn’t really matter where they are. You either trust them or you don’t trust them. The other thing is you have to give each person goals that are measurable. You have to have metrics to be able to measure performance that they need to understand those metrics like in the case of an architecture engineering firm, utilization is a very important metric, and it has to be monitored, and you have to help them please be able to achieve those goals. But it really does come down to trust.

Doug: I think you’re right. So tell us a little bit about your ideal client in the architecture and engineering world and what are some of the common problems you see that you solve with your methodology.

June: Sure. I wrote a book about seven years ago now called Find The Lost Dollars: Six Steps to Increase Profits In Architecture, Engineering and Environmental Firms. And in the book, identify 10 culture traps. And that’s usually where we start with a firm because we find that these culture traps are causing behaviors on an everyday basis that are causing them to leak money from all over the business. In particular, I identify nine areas of the business where they commonly lose money.

But the 10 culture traps include things like keep the client happy at all cost. And when that is your philosophy with that’s what you’re training your employees to do, then the employee will do anything to avoid upsetting a client. So for example, if a client asks for extra services that are outside the scope of the contract, the employee won’t ask them for a change order. And so you’ll end up losing a lot of money on the projects. So the employee needs to understand that yes, we want to keep them happy, but at the same time, we have to make a profit. My ideal client is usually a little bit, I don’t want to say a young CEO but a newer CEO.

And what I mean by that is most of the firms have been around a long time, their founders very often are their founders, kids are running a business. And they grew up in a very traditional conservative, what I call, top-down leadership mode. And we’re looking for clients that really want to change their culture, to be more progressive, to be more transparent, to be able to relate to the millennials and the gen zs and x that are

Doug: All the others

June: Now make up half the workforce. And they get very frustrated by those people but it’s really because they’re not willing to bend their old school ways of looking at how the business should be run. I can help them get through some of that if they’re willing to take a good look at what they’re doing and see that It’s not working. But in some cases, we need to wait until the more progressive leader comes in into a leadership role. And they’re really looking to make some changes.

Doug: Is the older generation, whether it’s family or whatever, is the older generation sort of hanging around being supportive of the new leadership, or are they just gone in most cases?

June: Well, there’s a couple things going on here, if they’re doing a leadership transition internally. And this is one reason I come into a business is because they’re not making enough profit to pay off the old guy to leave. Like he wants to leave and retire, but there’s no money to do that. And so, very often they’re hanging around a lot longer than they wanted to. And part of that is because of the recession in 2008.

The firms lost so much value that it took them many, many years to recover that value. And leaders who thought they were going to retire, you know, between 65 and 70 years old, now they’re 75 and they’re still not retired, which is very frustrating to them and frustrating to the younger people who are ready to take over. So there’s a lot of different dynamics going on.

Very often when I’m working with a firm, my average client is somewhere in the ballpark of say 70 to 300 employees. And so they usually have multiple people on their leadership team and there’s usually some conflict going on there in terms of their agreement on the vision of the company and where they’re going and how to make a living and what kind of clients they want to take. So, those are typical issues, but very often profitability is a result of a whole number of things they’re doing that just aren’t working. The lack of profitability, I should say.

Doug: So really, lack of profit is an outcome from these culture traps and these nine sort of money leaks.

June: Definitely, yeah.

Doug: Tell us a little bit about one or two of those. Tell us about the top ones and those nine money-losing areas.

June: Sure. Well, I alluded to that one of them earlier, which is called scope creep. Scope creep is where you create an estimate for a project and it has a very defined scope. And then your employees don’t abide by it. They, there’s two types of scope creep, there’s internal and external. Internal is where your employees just decide to over-design the project. They have 30 hours to do a task and they spend 60 hours on it.

And you can’t bill the client so that extra time so it creates a writeoff. The other type is external. That’s where the client changes their mind and they have, you know, they want more meetings and they want more drawing revisions and they want site visits and they want all of these things that weren’t in the original contract where they actually want to change the design itself somewhere along the way, which is going to cost a lot of money.

It tends to trickle down from architects to all the different engineers who are supporting that project. And then you’re going to have, if you don’t stand strong and get change orders right when the client is requesting the changes and monitor those things really carefully, you’re going to lose a lot of money on the project.

Doug: That makes perfect, perfect sense.

June: Yeah, that’s the biggest one but there’s a lot of other ones. There’s a lot of other ones.

Doug: You got nine, so we won’t have time to go through all nine but that’s a great reason for folks to really dig in and research what you do because, and I think it’s really fascinating that you’re In the sort of 70 ish employees plus because that’s a pretty good-sized team of people. And you’re right, there’s going to be at least three key leaders there. Maybe five.

June: Yeah. And we have smaller clients, we have a whole bunch of them. But my average client that’s, you know, really focused on improving their business and changing the culture, they’re usually a little bit bigger. I’d say my average is probably around 100 employees. And I think what happens is they’re still run like a mom and pop shop until they get to that 70, 80, 90 and they realize we can’t keep doing this. It’s not working. And we have to, we need new processes. We need procedures. We need accountability. They don’t like accountability. And

Doug: Yeah, I know. That’s my world. That’s my world teaching people EOS is it’s like, Guys, it’s based on accountability. We create a thing called and accountability chart for a reason. And they, some of them went out and created their own firm because they didn’t like accountability, working for somebody else.

June: Exactly. Yeah. They wanted autonomy and creativity to be, you know, more important than, they don’t like it. You know, it’s interesting. They don’t even like to talk about profit. I talked to someone recently and he says, well we don’t talk about profit. And I said, Why? And he said, Well, the younger people don’t have an ear for that these days. They want to save the world and, you know, improve the environment and be part of the community. And I said, Well, how are you supposed to pay for that?

And, you know, and so I, what I do is I try to connect the mission of the company back to the profitability so they can see we’ve got to make money in order even just to pay you guys. We got to make money to give you benefits. We got to make money to be part of the community and to give back to the world. And these days, you need money just to stay in business. So,

Doug: Yeah. So how much do you teach about the difference between profitability and cash flow?

June: We go into that very deeply.

Doug: Not the same thing, is it?

Profitability and Cash Flow

June: No, not at all. We, profit is, what happens in a typical architecture engineering firm is they don’t focus on profit, they focus on revenue. And so you know, oh, well, we build the client, you know? Well, number one, we may not have made any profit and number two, we may not ever get paid. So two big problems that they have. So just focusing on revenue isn’t good enough. One of the things we teach about also is getting the right clients, to get clients that value your work and where you’re able to make a good profit.

So and, you know, when the recession hit 2008, they all became desperate to stay in business and to keep their people utilized. So they just started taking horrible projects that had no profit. And that creates a vicious cycle of long term business losses and it holds back growth. And what’s interesting is the last five years, and especially the last two to three years, these firms have been growing out of control. I think in some cases, they’ve been growing too fast.

And what happens when you grow too fast is cashflow becomes a massive problem because it normally takes about 120 to 180 days from the time a new employees start to when you start collecting the cash for the first work that they did months ago. And so that, you know, they then they have to go out and borrow if they’re not getting paid fast enough. So it’s, growing too fast can be a big problem as well.

Doug: So not opens the door, I mean, that that would be a self-induced crisis, a little different than we’re talking with the virus and all that. But tell me about how many, what percentage of the time to clients show up to you with this sort of crisis that they created? And you’re in a way helping them turn around, right? They’re in, is that normal for you? Or is that a like a rare exception?

June: I think probably in the last two years, firms have been more profitable. And so what I’ve been focusing on for the last couple years as they’ve been more profitable, is helping them develop their future leaders, to make sure their future leaders have a good financial background and financial acumen to be able to take over the firm someday and make good financial decisions. I also help a lot with processes and systems.

I have a systems background, having sold a major earpiece system into many of those firms. For many years, I understand the system side. And one of the self-made crisis they often have is that they don’t really utilize their system very effectively. So they end up with lots of spreadsheets, and people all doing things their own way. And there’s a lot of inconsistency.

Doug: Interesting. Yeah, systems and processes as people just want to put that off. They don’t necessarily want to tackle that. It’s not the most fun challenge.

June: No. And it’s right in the last few years, they’ve been too busy to deal with it, which I think is a big mistake. But it’s hard to tell them that when they’re busier than they’ve ever been. They’re too busy or too slow, you know?

Doug: Yeah. In fact, June, I’m just too busy to have this conversation with you so come back when business slows down. And you’re like, yeah, wait a minute, wait a minute, you could use my help right now dealing with the busy.

June: Yeah. And when business slows down, you’re then, you’re in a panic mode of what do I do with all these employees that I have. So there’s never a great time to deal with, you know, getting your business set up to be better in the future. And that’s really, you know, we’re just trying, you and I are really in the same business, we’re trying to help these companies to be better, to have a strong foundation so they can grow. And otherwise you’re just onboarding people into chaos. And it’s, that’s never a good thing. So,

Doug: You know, have you found any mindsets or any helpful tools for the too busy CEO? Let’s say it’s the young generation one coming in and the old generation trying to transition. And they really are ideal, you know, they get the right number of employees. But they come up with the sort of objection of Well, we’re just too busy to really start right now. Have you found any sort of like pry bars or leverage points to say, Wait, wait, wait, now is the time you’ve got to break through the business? You’ve got to, you know, to use Michael Gerber or somebody else, you got to work on the business, not in the business.

June: Yeah, so there’s a couple things. One is if you look across the organization, very often what you see is while they’re making, let’s say, they’re making 20% profit and years ago, they weren’t, they were making 12, right? So they think, Wow, we’re doing really well, when in fact, they actually could have been making 25. So they’re actually losing 5%. So one of the things I always do is go back to the numbers. Show me what your write-offs look like. Show me, you know, how many projects are going over budget. Are all business units performing where they should be? Because very often, one business unit’s doing 30% and the other ones doing 20%.

And so they would balance out. So somebody else is pulling all the weight for the other business unit. So, in that case, what we might do is focus on turning around an underperforming team. So that’s a strategy that I’ve often used to say, well just give me this team of people and let’s see if we can turn this group around so they’re hitting their potential. And, yeah, and then another option is to start at the top. So very often I say, let’s just get the leadership team together so that we can all agree on the path forward for how we want this company to be run from a, you know, business operations standpoint,

Doug: Right. Get that culture, reset that culture reset the mindset of the leadership team.

June: Yes. I’ve done that many, many times. And that has been very successful. They will come back and tell me Wow, you know, we haven’t agreed on this stuff ever before because they didn’t have a process, a way to sit down and look at everything in a methodical way.

Doug: When you engage and when a client in your sweet spot signs up with you and get started with you, what is the process look like? You know, what phases do you have? How long does it take? Are they with you forever? Are they with you for a month? I mean, what does it look like?

AEC Business’ Processes

June: Yeah, you know, it runs the gamut. We really have two main types of clients. The smaller clients, we actually have the ability for them to do our entire program on their own without our help. We have it all kind of in a done for you program. And that makes it more affordable for them. And they’ve gotten great results. I’ve been very excited to see that, you know, a 20 person firm will often get 10 times return on investment in just a few months because there are so many areas that just haven’t been addressing in the company.

And then with the firms that are a little bit bigger tend to be what we call our enterprise clients. And we have a three-step process that they go through. We have a business assessment survey where we survey all their employees about how people process and systems are running in each of the nine areas of their business. And we get our detailed report back that we sit down and go over with the executive team. And that process only takes about a week, so it’s pretty easy. And then we have a 10-week training program, where they do one hour a week of our online content.

And it’s very interactive with exercises and games and videos and assessments, and also have goal setting. It’s fun, we like to challenge each employee to find 10,000 dollars in 10 weeks. It’s called Find the Lost Dollar, So we’re asking them to go find the lost dollars. And many of them will. They’ll go out there and find all kinds of lost dollars that their company has been losing. And so they’d be combined that one hour online with one hour of group discussion, which we often facilitate virtually over Zoom. And we, in 10 weeks they have a wrap-up meeting.

Doug:  Are they subgroups of employees or like the manager level, or team?

June: sometimes it’s a mixture. Sometimes it’s just the leadership team. Sometimes it’s a mixture of leaders, business unit leaders and project managers. It depends on the company and what their specific goals are. The first step in our process really is to understand their goals and build the program around their goals.

And then our enterprise clients are putting probably, you know, 15 to 20 people at a time, over a two or three year period. And that’s what’s going to completely transform their culture so that they’re speaking a common financial language, they can give their project managers detailed project reports out of their system, and they’ll be able to understand what they’re reading.

Because very often they don’t. They’ve never had the financial training before. They don’t even know what most of the terminology means or how it’s calculated. So, and then our third step really is to, what we find is that after they go through these two steps, we have all of these great ideas and goals set, that we go back and we prioritize and we start figuring out, okay, if we could implement one, two or three of these every quarter, those lost dollars are just going to start pouring into the company.

And so we meet and we prioritize the goals that they’ve put in. And we then figure out which ones we want to implement. I actually have an actual process for doing that as well. That has been very effective. And very often they can get, you know, two to three really critical internal initiatives implemented in a few months. And then they’ll go on and do some more of them. So business improvement is a never-ending process.

Doug: Yeah, exactly. And so they pretty much have a 10 to 12 weeks upfront to get going. And then you are able to see things clearly. And they pick the two to three critical areas where they can get a lot of gains or get them done.

June: Yes. Which we’re addressing the scope creep problems or they’re estimating issues or the project management practices. Sometimes it goes around their proposals and sales. So, you know, we’re looking at all of those areas. And then the enterprise clients were very often working with them on a monthly, sometimes its quarterly basis to hold them accountable and give them support. To help them keep moving and making, you know, making progress and getting momentum, keeping the momentum going.

Doug: How do you do that?

June: We have calls with them, you know, every couple weeks sometimes. Sometimes it’s once a month, sometimes it’s quarterly, depending on the firm and what they’re, what they want to do and how strong their internal facilitation group is. We’ll meet with them and we’ll talk about where they’re at with each of their initiatives and what’s holding them back and try to help them keep the, keep your foot on the gas pedal, right? What happens with a lot of internal initiatives as people give up on them. You know, if there’s not enough attention being paid and nobody’s holding anyone accountable, they just kind of die.

Doug: Mm-hmm. So the cadence of that you sort of work that out with the client depending on their situation.

June: It depends on the firm and how, you know, what they’re trying to accomplish.

Doug: Excellent. So how do, I mean, we’re all in a world where people need help and they don’t necessarily know about us. How do people usually find out about AEC Business?

June: Well, I am speaking at a lot of industry conferences. We do a lot of marketing ourselves. We also have affiliate partners and referral partners and implementation partners too, who implement our program across the country. Some of them are CPA for them. Some of them are software resellers that I’ve known for a long time. They’re all industry experts. They’re connected in the industry.

And, but very often we’ll meet them at a conference which have all been canceled this quarter. Yeah, I had five that I was supposed to be at this quarter, and they’re all canceled. But that’s normally where we get most of our clients is through those conferences and we also do email marketing and webinars and things like that. And I have a blog.

Doug: Good. By the way, modern times here, did any of those conferences flip over and say they’re going to go virtual?

June: I am aware of some that did, but not the ones that I was signed up for to sponsor. It’s very hard for us to sponsor, to deal with a situation like that. Some of them delayed until the fall and so I’m interested to see how that’s gonna work out.

Doug: You know, we might have a whole crush of events, you know, in September.

June: Yeah, and then are people gonna go? I don’t know that. It’s all a mystery.

Doug: We really don’t know. But the fact that you essentially conduct your business on sort of Zoom meetings or other platforms, I mean, you’re modern. You’re set up for this crazy coronavirus situation.

June: We are. And the other interesting thing is that in the industry, our biggest competitors are mostly live training events. And so those are all getting canceled. And I think this is a great opportunity, especially if there’s a little bit of downtime for some of the project managers, get them to do this online program, which will actually help build the financial stability that companies are going to need right now to keep going.

Doug: So what’s happening to the typical AEC firm now, you know, these several weeks, we’re into the coronavirus? What’s going on with building projects and design projects?

Sometimes Silver Linings Can Be Found in Hard Times

June: I don’t know yet. I’m, I don’t think a lot of decisions have been made at this point. Most of them are working and having their employees work at home when that has not been the case in the past. So that’s caused a lot of chaos for them. And most of them are telling me, you know, get back to me in a month or two. We can’t talk to you right now. So and I understand that. I completely, completely understand. Nobody is in a position at this point to do anything until we get some clarity here about what the world’s gonna look like in a few months.

Doug: Exactly. Well, it’s certainly an interesting time. And it’s unfortunate that people are being both economically and physically impacted by the virus. But, you know, we, it’s just the latest challenge. We got to rise up and manage your way through it.

June: Yeah. And I just wrote an article that’s getting published today on our blog, and it’s basically saying, you know, in some cases, opportunities are presented in these situations that would normally not be available. So everyone needs to be looking for those opportunities.

Doug: That’s right. It’s, there can be a silver lining in that dark cloud so you got to keep your eyes open and be ready to serve. And maybe be ready to do something a little different, right?

June: Yeah. Sometimes very different.

Doug: Sometimes very different. So tell us how folks can learn more about you and AEC Business.

June: Well, they can definitely go to our website aecbusiness.com. And you’ll also see there’s a blog and lots of great articles that address all of these different issues that we’ve been talking about. And hopefully, they’ll get some value there. And if you get on our email list, you’ll hear about webinars and other events, online events that we’ll be holding in the future.

Doug: Awesome. So kind of wrapping up, I want to challenge you to think for a second, trying times, challenging times, you know, you’re here to help your clients. What’s your number one piece of advice right now? Whether they’re your client or not, they’re just in your market, what’s your number one thought for them?

June: Well, obviously cash is incredibly important right now. I would say get out there and get some cash. I think especially if you have a huge amount of receivables right now, that is going to be a huge challenge if the cash stops coming in or things do slow down. The other, one other thing I’d say is give your employees a lot of guidance.

Guide them through this. Look where you can tweak your systems and processes to be more efficient for them so they aren’t wasting time, and making sure that you’re communicating frequently with employees because they are freaking out probably right now. And have, you know, leadership, I believe, requires staying calm in the face of extreme uncertainty. So get your cash and keep your employees if you can.

Doug: Great advice. Yeah, there’s nothing like communicating and over-communicating. It’s pretty difficult to over-communicate with employees.

June: It is. And most firms way under-communicate.

Doug: Yeah, yeah. I tell my clients the same thing. When you’ve said it seven times, you’ve said it once. So say it a lot.

June: You’re exactly right. Say it a lot.

Doug: Well, June, it’s been delightful to have you on the podcast. Great points of wisdom, excellent service for your target clients. I encourage folks out there to check out AEC Business and tell your friends that are in architecture or engineering, you know, about this because, you know, it’s, not everybody knows there’s help available. So time to help each other.

June: Thanks, Doug. We want to help them out, especially now when things are so tough.

Doug: Yep. Well, thanks, everybody. That’s another episode of Go for Growth Podcast. Thanks to my guest June Jewell. And look for the next podcast coming around. And if you’re interested or know somebody that would like to be a guest on this podcast, just reach out to me at doug@resourcesforceos.com. Thanks again. Go out there and be successful.