Business consultant Steve Gordon turns the tables and interviews me about a topic that’s near and dear to my heart: being an effective boss. Specifically how to be a leader that engages employees and inspires them to do their best work.

This is especially important in small and medium-sized business where a business owner is in direct contact with employees all the time. 

The process starts with figuring out your core values… and then finding people that share those values. The idea is to be the type of manager that makes people really want to be there. And it’s not a simple matter of providing financial incentives or perks like free beer on Fridays. 

We discuss that in detail, as well as…

• The biggest myths about engaging employees
• An alternative to the typical organizational chart
• Why you need to measure progress (and how to do it right)
• How to practice the art of self-management
• And more

Listen now…

Mentioned in this episode:

• Resources for CEOs
• Connect with Doug: LinkedIn

Transcript

Doug Hall: Hi, everybody. This is Doug Hall, your host for Doug Hall’s Go for Growth Podcast. And today is a special episode. I’m going to turn the tables today and actually invite my friend and business associate, Steve Gordon. I’ll tell you more about him in a minute. But I’m going to invite Steve to interview me on my podcast. So how’s that for a little different twist? So Steve Gordon is a successful businessman who has a kind of a multifaceted practice in business. 

And I’m going to get Steve to talk just a little bit about his business. So you get background on that and how to find out. But he and I were talking about a couple of topics, sharing a community. And this one topic how to be a great boss within employees sort of jumped off the page with Steve. And like we got to talk about that, Doug, and I want to interview you on this topic. So that’s why I invited Steve to the podcast today to kind of turn the tables and talk to me and ask me questions about, well, how do you become a great boss? And how do we measure engagement? So, Steve, welcome to the podcast. Glad to have you here today. 

Steve Gordon: Hey, Doug, thanks for having me. This is gonna be fun. I, as you know, I host a podcast of my own called The Unstoppable CEO. So I do enjoy grilling guests. And so I get to turn the tables on you and do that with you a little bit today. But I think this is a hugely important topic. We’re seeing it come up more and more with the business owners we work with this whole idea of how to create engagement and be an effective leader at the same time. 

And I know that you’ve really tackled this and with all of your background with EOS, you had a lot to say about it. So let’s, I think let’s start from the perspective of kind of defining this at a high level. Can you lay it out for us a little bit of what’s the whole issue here, that most people are having around being a great boss with engaged employees?

Being a Great Boss Makes for Engaged Workers

Doug: Great point. So, in my travels working with business owners, and having been a manager and leader of people in the past, particularly in the business owner community where there’s no corporate structure, there’s just the founder or partners who start a business. There’s always this little bit of uncertainty of, well, how good am I as a boss? And how well do I hang on to people? And do I have the right people? And do I have them doing the right work? And do they really care about being here? Do they want to be here? Are they just here for a paycheck? These are common business owner, or any kind of manager wonders about that. 

But if you work for Amazon or Google, there’s lots of other reasons for you to work there. If you work for a 25 person professional service firm or 100 person cleaning business, you know, you’re in a, you’re a big part of a small organization. And as the owner and founder, you’re driving that bus. And there are human, normal human feelings of, am I adequate? Am I a good boss? Do people really want to be here? Are they telling me the truth? You know, am I treating them right? These are all common business owner questions that I deal with with my clients. 

And just to kind of expand on what you said, as many of you folks know, you’ve kind of picked up on the fact that I specialize in helping business owners get what they want from their business by teaching them and coaching them to use a leadership or management system that’s called EOS, or the Entrepreneurial Operating System. And one of the big parts of learning this management system is, of course, the people component. Getting great people on a great team producing, you know, great results. 

And that, in the community in which I’m a part of, that led to one of our senior members writing a really good book which happens to be named How to Be a Great Boss. And it talks to the notion of within the operating system we use within the management system, what are the human elements and what are the practical tools that we can employ in small, small, medium business so we can become a preferred employer, A and B, have great employees showing up every day because they really want to be there? 

To me, that’s engaged employees. They really want to be there, they really want to be a part of a solution. And to me, that’s what as a business owner, I want my clients as business owners to really aspire to that. To be a great preferred employer, and have great people on a great team showing up every day ready to hit the field, getting great results. So that’s sort of my opening segue for this whole topic of how to be a great boss and have engaged employees.

Steve: Well, you just answered my next question, which was how do we define engaged employees. And I think you’ve done it there with, you know, the idea that that people are showing up, they’re excited to be there, they’re getting great results. Which I think is key, because so much of what you read these days about creating engagement and creating culture and all that stuff is centered around the perks that you’re creating for your team members. 

And I, in my experience, just having witnessed businesses where they did a lot of that, that didn’t always lead to great results and didn’t always lead to really engaged employees. It wasn’t about that. And I sense there’s more depth to it than just Hey, we need some ping pong tables and some free lunches.

It’s About Much More Than Bean Bags and Ping Pong Tables

Doug: Yeah, I very much agree with you. We get this stuff from the media. We see web articles and all about how it’s so cool to have free beer on Friday afternoon and, you know, free snacks and places to lay down and have a nap and bring your dog to work and these sort of perks like you said. My experience is, yeah, those are nice and they might make a little bit of a difference but that’s not the meat and potatoes of being a great boss and having engaged employees. What I see and what I help my clients understand is that it really starts with your concept of the company. 

And as an owner, the way you set up the core values and the key, you know, founding principles of your company and attracting people that are magnetically drawn to those core values, other words, you’re one of us, you belong here, because you sort of believe underneath without even knowing it, you have the same sort of core beliefs we have, and your core values reflect those beliefs and then your behavior every day at work that shows your core values, you know, in real life. So things like people use integrity as a core value. Well, I’m like, you’re either an honest person or you’re not. 

And if whether or not I use the term integrity, you know, I want people around me that say what they’ll do and do what they say. I mean, they’re straight up, they’re honest. They’re, they have integrity. And some people put that on their core values and others, I say, well wait a minute, you want everybody to be that way. So but the core values topic is sort of the basis or the foundation of what makes a great person. And frankly, when you’re the founder of the business like you are, Steve, at Unstoppable CEO, the core values of your firm are basically your core values. 

And then you want to attract people to your team that resonate with your values. So that to me is the fundamental teaching to make sure that people belong. And then the second thing is to make sure they believe. I give credit to my fellow implementer Walt Brown who wrote a book called The Patient Organization in which he described seven different questions or attributes. And I’ve touched on the first two. Do I belong here? The question in the mind of the employee. 

Do I belong in this place? Am I a member of this company or do I feel like an outsider? Do I believe in what’s going on here? If Steve setup Unstoppable CEO or Doug has setup, Resources for CEOs do they believe in our mission? You know, my mission is to help business owners get what they really want out of their business. Well, if I’m going to hire an associate, they need to believe the same thing. They need to have that mission in their mind, that purpose in their mind. Like, yeah, we help business owners. They don’t just show up for a paycheck. 

They come in every day saying My job is to help 10 business owners. So those to me are two fundamental, foundational pieces of making sure that you get the right person on the right bus. And I’m borrowing from the Jim Collins analogy of write people on the right bus. Once you get them on the right bus you got to get them in the right seat. So do I know what I’m responsible for? That’s a big question. Do I know what I have to be accountable for? So if I hire somebody to do sales work, but they’re really only a good bookkeeper, I’m probably picking the wrong person putting him in the wrong seat. You know what I mean?

Steve: So I think that’s where a lot of business owners maybe start to get tripped up. I mean, it’s one thing to set kind of the, you know, that vision and have those values. You know, and I think a lot of companies are doing that now, probably not with the degree of clarity that maybe would give them the most benefit.

But then when you take it sort of to the next step of Okay, now, I’m going to make this practical and boil it down to here’s what, you know, here’s how that’s impacting maybe our strategy and then the strategy sort of filtering down to in this role, this is what this person needs to do to be successful. If I’m hearing you correctly, that’s really what you’re describing is getting really crystal clear with every person or with every role first, about what success looks like in that role, and then communicating that to the individual that’s fulfilling that role.

The Crucial Importance of Role Clarity

Doug: Right. And the tool we use in our management system, we call it an accountability chart to kind of replace and upgrade the org chart to say that our chart lays out all the different hats that people can wear, all the different seats that they could sit in. Because in a smaller business, most of us sit in two or three or four seats. It’s just during the day, we have to change hats and say, Hey, I’m coming to you from this perspective, or I’m coming from that perspective. 

And so that’s responsibility and duties and expected results, which lead to the fourth question of as an employee, do I know how I’m being measured? And that’s a really important thing. And even more important, could I measure myself every day or every week? Did I do a good job? I don’t want to wait for Steve Gordon. Judy did a great job. If I’m Judy, I want to know Hey, Steve, I know I did a good job for you. 

Or at my client, you know, hey, you know, David, I did this yesterday. And David says that’s awesome, Judy, you killed your numbers. And it’s not just sales. It can be customer service, it can be manufacturing, it can be quality. It can be shipping, it can be receiving, it can be bookkeeping, if people know how they’re being measured, they can actually turn that and say, Well, I can measure myself and I would know at the end of the day, if I had a good day. 

That is so reassuring to humans because they don’t know what you’re thinking. If you’re Steve, if you’re the boss walking around, your employees can’t read your mind, and they may not want to bother you. Hey, Steve, you got a minute? Am I doing a good job? That’s kind of an awkward conversation. But if you’re clear on what you expect from them, and they’re clear on what they expect to do, they can measure themselves once a week or once a quarter, you all can look at those measurements and celebrate. 

You can have a conversation and say, Hey, Judy, you had a quarter. Congratulations. That’s awesome. Thanks for contributing to Unstoppable CEO. And she can say Yeah, I know, Steve, I knew during the quarter, I was having a great quarter. And it really helped me feel like I was in the right place, contributing here. And when I hear that from my clients, that kind of reaction, I know they’re giving their employees meaningful work. Employees are bought into their work when they can measure their results.

Steve: Really when it comes, when you think about what an engaged employee looks like, and I think this is an important distinction for folks who are maybe grappling with this, because again, we hear all this stuff all the time, you know, there’s the big gallop study that was done on employee engagement and all this. 

And, you know, I think sometimes it’s hard to picture what that actually translates into, but I think you really articulated it in a really practical way there. I just want to kind of recap. So basically, a highly engaged employee is someone who is happy to be at work and who knows what winning looks like and can manage themselves, you know, within their job to deliver a win on a daily or weekly or monthly or quarterly basis. You know, in other words, their in

Doug: That’s a great description. Right. Yep.

Steve: Because I’ll tell you, you know, as a business owner, I’ve built two businesses. When I hear the term engaged employee, I go, Oh, great. This is one of those crazy things, you know, we’re going to go, you know, do some team building or some, you know, sing Kumbaya, hands or whatever. And I think the distinction is, this is really what every business owner wants, in that it’s an employee that shows up and can run their world within the company on their own.

Doug: Yes. And I would say that’s an engaged self-managing employee, which are actually two different goals.

Steve: What’s the distinction?

Doug: Okay, the self-management part. Boss, you can count on me to get it done. That’s accountability at work. When they say boss you can count on me the other hand, right hand left hand, turn on. Only responsibility when you have it come back to you and say You can count on me. Now they’re accountable. Then they self-measure, they put the other measure, I think the dual win there is when they actually self measure, they are then self-managing, and they are automatically engaged. 

Now, can you be engaged and not self-managing? I think you can. But the highest level of engagement is self-management. And everybody needs a boss. Everybody needs somebody to go to, to escalate or to get help or to get resources. And that’s not what I’m talking about. Management is getting things done through the efforts of other people. And a self-managing person goes and gets them done for you. You don’t have to goad them, kick them, prod or control them.

Steve: Yeah, I think that’s key for people to understand. And putting those two things together, you know, so taking the engaged employee and kind of graduating them on to self-management, I mean, that’s as a business owner, that’s the dream, isn’t it? That’s pretty amazing.

Doug: That’s a huge win, man. Yeah, that is the dream. So I want to say that self-management is where you’re getting everybody is let’s be realistic. But engaged, there’s a certain amount of the need sort of on an analog display here, like this element and accountability and enough responsibility and enough leads enough belongingness that you don’t have to kick two homers for them at the core. 

Steve: Yeah, that’s fantastic. So where do we go from this point? So we’ve got, we’ve talked about what an engaged employee looks like. So for somebody listening to this, what’s the next step? What’s the next piece they need to do? 

Are Their Opinions Being Heard?

Doug: Well, let me just say there’s a couple of more markers that I’ll just zoom past because my friend Walt Brown pulled these together, kind of pull them out of our collective knowledge as a community, his own experience with hundreds of clients, and basically said, Look, if you can answer yes to these seven questions, you’ve got an engaged employee. Now, they may or may not be entirely self-managing, but they’re engaged. So do they understand how their opinions are being heard? Everybody wants to be heard. 

We don’t have to follow every suggestion, but we need to acknowledge our employees and listen to them. But another thing is, do they know how they’re being developed? What’s their career path with us? With smaller companies, we have a little bit of an issue there. We probably need to rethink career development, career pathing you know, what’s important to the employee? They need to take ownership of that and we need to help them. That’s a question like, how do we help them figure out how they’re being developed in our small to small-medium business? And then last, but not least, how do they fit in our work-life balance?

Some of us as entrepreneur business owners, we’re like maniacs. Some of us work 80 hours a week. When do we expect our employees to work 80 a week? And by the way, I don’t really want anybody to work 80 hours a week, but some of us do. So where is our work-life balance? How do they fit in? So when you look at it from who I belong here, all the way down to do I fit in work-life balance here, there’s a set of answers to that, that say, Yes, I belong here. I’m engaged. You’ve got my full attention. I’m developing a career. I know how I’m being measured. I know what I’m responsible for. 

All these, this is like a seven-piece puzzle that fits together in a complete picture for an engaged employee. Getting to that point is the next point. It’s like, well, what pieces if you’re so smart, Doug, what are the pieces fitting out there? We’ve got these seven questions that we’re going to ask of ourselves and of our employees and we’re going to ask the employees how they feel about belonging here, believing, accountability, responsibility measurement. Are we listening to their opinion? Do they have a development plan? Do they fit our work-life balance? 

When you work through all that, you might say, well, Doug, those are great questions, but like, what are the practical tools to get there? And I would say to you, from my experience, from what I teach my clients, the leadership and management system contained in the entrepreneurial operating system combined with the amplified tools and messages in How to Be a Great Boss book by Rene Bohr and Gina Whitman, these are the toolsets I use with my clients, and they’re available to all of you out there. You don’t have to hire me. I mean, you can read the books and apply it yourself. 

You can get a hold of me or somebody else to get a little help, get a little coaching, but it’s not rocket science, you guys. It’s getting these mindsets in place as an owner and get out of your own head. Just use some practical knowledge from the world out there around you. And these are my sources of practical knowledge. So I encourage you guys to download these books and read them. Reach out to me, happy to answer questions. Steve, you’re a user and you’re on this journey too. So I mean, we all need to just help each other.

Steve: Yeah. Full disclosure, I’m not only a user of these systems, but I’m a part of your traction groups. And they, this entire process has been really transformational for us. So I would love it if you’d share, and you don’t have to name names but, you know, you’re working with all kinds of businesses who are going through this process. 

And they’re creating environments where the, you know, the business owner and the leadership team and the managers are able to operate with confidence. So they’re feeling really good about their role. And they’re really upping the level of engagement and maybe even creating some self-managing employees, like we’ve talked about. But they’re upping the level of engagement across the board. So as they’ve gone through that, what changes in those companies, what changes for those business owners? What does it look like after they’ve gone through that?

What Happens Next?

Doug: Yeah, so what we see as they use these tools is they get everybody aligned on the plan of where we’re going and how we’re going to get there. Like 10 years out, three years out, one year out this quarter, like, where are we going? How are we going to get there? What are we going to improve this quarter? What are we going to improve during the whole fiscal year? Who’s on the bus? What seats do they fill on the bus? And most of us have to fill two or three or four seats, starting from the owners on down. And how hard are we gonna work? 

How fast are we going to go? How are we going to measure ourselves? You know, what are our metrics of achievement? Not just financials every month, but what are the leading indicators we’re working on? Like, how do I know I had a good day today? Well, I talked to 10 potential customers, and, you know, had a good conversation. That would be something I could measure if I were in sales, or if I’m developing business. Or maybe I had one good conversation today. Whatever it needs to be. 

And these markers are what we put in place. And this is how people move forward. So I’ve got clients from all different industries, IT services, coffee roasting, professional services, like a law firm. And they all are in different industries, but they’re using the same sets of tools in six component areas, getting on the same vision, you know, getting to a shared vision, getting traction towards where we want to be, solving issues every week. I mean, they’re all using these tools like you’re attempting to use, and I use them in my own practice. 

So the research for folks is to look a little deeper into this. I’d be happy for you to reach out to me. I can point you to resources. Hit the web and look up the Entrepreneurial Operating System. Look up how to be a great boss. And start your own journey towards getting great people on your bus doing great things.

Steve: Fantastic, Doug. Well, thank you for sharing this. This is, I’ve got notes that I’ve taken here. Hopefully, those who are listening and weren’t driving took notes as well. Great stuff. Again, really quickly, where can people reach if they have questions or if they want to learn more about how you can help?

Doug: Yep, so go to resourcesforceos.com to spell it out, or Google up Doug Hall, EOS implementer in Seattle. You’ll find your way to my LinkedIn, you’ll find your way to www.resourcesforceos.com. This will turn into a fully produced podcast and will be posted there under Go for Growth Podcast. And if you know a business owner, in your community or yourself, if you’ve got something to share with the world, I’d be happy to talk to you about being a guest on my podcast. And Steve, it’s been wonderful to be a guest of yours on my podcast. How’s that work?

Steve: I know it’s 

Doug: Hey, let me turn this around. How did they find out about you and your services?

Steve: Well, the best place to go is go to, whether it’s Apple Podcasts or wherever you’re listening to this podcast and search for the Unstoppable CEO Podcast. And we’d love to have you join our band of listeners. We’ve got, Doug, I think we’re up to 170 or 180 episodes now interviewing CEOs from all over the world. So we’d love to have folks come and join us there.

Doug: All right, people go there. Thank you, Steve. 

Steve: Thank you.